The new 'ordinariate' for Anglican Papalists today erected by the CDF offers the greatest hope to those currently of the Anglican obedience who desire to enter into full communion with the See of Rome, and is undoubtedly a fruit of the prayers, longings and labours of many holy and faithful souls who for over a century and a half have devoted themselves to this cause. It is undoubtedly the fulfillment of the highest aspirations and deepest desires of a not inconsiderable number of Anglo-Papalists since the heady days of the Catholic Revival. Let us certainly pray for those who will seek to enter the Roman Communion by the path which has now been paved for them by Pope Benedict XVI. In terms of ecumenical activity, the establishment of the ordinariate may be the most momentous event since the sixteenth century Reformation.
This news is indeed fascinating and compelling, and will undoubtedly be equally fascinating to watch unfold in the days and weeks ahead. But it must be said that we should very much doubt that many in the orthodox Continuing Anglican movement will avail themselves of this new constitutional structure in the Roman Communion, as our priests and people are generally not inclined or disposed to accept the Papal Claims and Dogmas and have no affinity with Papalism. We should confidently assert that most of our Continuing Churchmen repudiate the I Vatican Council of 1870 and so find no overwhelming attraction to this new offer. Papal Infallibility and Papal Universal Jurisdiction, combined with Rome's rejection of the validity of Anglican Orders and its assertion of the de fide and salvific character of the Marian Dogmas, is altogether a situation most Traditional Anglicans will find simply too difficult to accept. Assuredly, for most Continuing Churchmen, the observance of the creation of the new body will be intriguing, but academic, detached and remote, and likely nothing more. We shall be 'observers and by-standers' during the process to come.
In the meantime, we await with hopeful expectation what yet may come from dialogue with the Orthodox Church in America and what relationship may yet emerge between Eastern Orthodox Christians and us, the original Catholics of the Anglican Rite.
In short, as riveting as it is, the new Anglo-Papalist entity will not affect most Continuing Anglican jurisdictions in any direct way, save the Traditional Anglican Communion. But in all love and charity let us pray fervently for those who will now swim the Tiber in this fashion and wish them well in their journey of faith, love, hope and conscience.
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"We should confidently assert that most of our Continuing Churchmen repudiate the I Vatican Council of 1870 and so find no overwhelming attraction to this new offer. Papal Infallibility and Papal Universal Jurisdiction, combined with Rome's rejection of the validity of Anglican Orders and its assertion of the de fide and salvific character of the Marian Dogmas, is altogether a situation most Traditional Anglicans will find simply too difficult to accept."
I concur 100%. In fact, had I been able to accept Rome's papal and Marian dogmas and rejection of Anglican orders, I would have entered RCIA a while back, rather than been driving an hour away to the closest continuing Anglican parish over the last 3+ years.
Doubting Thomas
(ACC layman)
Asking you to speculate wildly, which you are likely reluctant to do, and comment on if the Anglican Province of America might (not will) be open to this overture.
If not can you help me understand how the Province of America relates as I find the Anglican umbrellas a bit confusing.
The The Episcopal Church In America, per the article, seems like it might join but the The Anglican Church In America is somehow different.( The Anglican Church )
In any case I am overjoyed at this announcement.
I’m thinking that many "Anglo-catholic" ECUSA clergy and parishioners will be signing up. It appears that this is being opened not just to the TAC but to all Anglicans, worldwide. I think you have a point about it being remote, much like the Latin groups, but again, I think many ECUSA folk will bring this to a very large movement. This could, indeed, be very dangerous, considering the fact that they were content with all the liberalism in ECUSA. We shall see!
I think this will be bigger than some are wanting it to be. The Anglican Church is in a mess and is only slipping away at an ever faster rate. For some time we have seen the clock on the wall counting down the time that the Anglican Church has left and the question has been weather to go Orthodox or Roman Catholic, I believe that this will help many to answer that question and join the Roman Church. I for one am not sure that to be "the answer" but I believe many other do and more will come to that understanding.
The main point made by canon Jones is that for of us many Anglo-Catholics Byzantium is much closer to us in doctrine and conviction than the Vatican, hence, that is the only place where true unity can be found, and thus going to the Vatican would be a compromise. First millennium Anglo-Catholics find serious problems with the Roman doctrines of supererogation, purgatory, and the marriage of priests, not to mention the dogmas of Vatican 1 regarding the blessed virgin Mary, Papal infallibility, and more. These dogmatic disagreements however are not issues between us and Orthodoxy. Surely many will flock to Rome, and since they believe as Rome does they should go, but for moment, the rest of us wait on Byzantium.
The unification of the Continuing Churches which subscribe to the Affirmation of St.Louis is achievable and would be the best course before we approach the Orthodox Churches.It may be possible for a united Continuum to make inroads with the Catholic Dioceses which fled TEC and have landed in the ACNA as the ACNA is not going to hold together.There are also some traditionalists in the C of E and elsewhere who are not as excited about Rome's offer as Forward in Faith seems to be.
Dear Father,
A friend asked me what my thoughts were - as an Orthodox priest - on this Personal Ordinariate. I wrote the following:
Concerning the Personal Ordinariate - I think it is a good sign and a nice first step. The things that bother me tough are:
- Rome urges Anglicans to be reconciled and perceives the reconciliation as an act of repentance on the part of Anglicans. The reconciliation is not mutual.
- In Apostolicae Curae Leo XIII indicates (correctly) that: "in the Church it has ever been a constant rule that it is sacrilegious to repeat the Sacrament of Order (Apost. Cur., 16) wherefore any Anglican clergy using the provision and being re-ordained are enabling the Roman Communion to commit an act of sacrilege. And I am not sure the sinner and the facilitator are to be distinguished in the responsibility for this sinful act.
- Despite the progress made by Benedict XVI in re-defining "Transubstantiation" so that the sacrament is no longer destroyed by the destruction of it's matter, and the redefinition of purgatory so that it is no longer a place where minor sins are punished until paid in full by physical flames of fire torturing the ones in purgatory he has not repealed any of the abuses surrounding them. Far as I know indulgences can still be bought to free souls from purgatory, the Blessed Sacrament can still be venerated outside the context of Communion (a habit picked up by not a few Anglo Catholics), exaggerated claims about Mary (Mediatrix of all Grace - to name but one) as salvific doctrine, the misguided ideas concerning the Papal office (Universal Jurisdiction, Infallibility Ex Cathedra). These and other things indicate that the Church of Rome is not (yet? ) ready to be a partner on equal footing in any re-union talks. So far re-union simply means conversion of Anglicans to Roman Catholicism. Granted the Ordinariate allows Anglicans to keep some externals but the distinctive content of he Anglican Catholic Faith (which really is a more traditional Catholicism) is to be rejected.
- The Chief Bishop of Rome has "aimed to overthrow the whole position of the Anglicans as a Church (paraphrasing Saepius officio, 1)" and has yet to repeal it and redefine its position towards the Church of England. I realize that this cannot be made to bear on those who have ordained women to the priesthood or episcopate or those ordained by women. Any Anglican dioceses, jurisdictions, provinces ordaining women is jeopardizing its existence precisely as Church and is destroying its sacramental backbone. To those Anglicans the conclusion of Apostolicae Curae is correct they are "utterly null and void" and such a provision as offered today may appropriate for them.
The latter, as you can imagine, is also why I am so reluctant to get involved with the ACNA ... It's Archbishop (++Duncan) is willing to ordain women to the priesthood (not the episcopate I understand) and is thereby introducing invalid orders into the ACNA even if provision is made by the ACNA for Catholic minded Anglicans such as FiF. I could reconcile with a provision for the REC to maintain some of its Calvinism but Women's Orders (except the diaconate) are deal-breaker.
So in short I think ++Benedict is on the right track, but has a long way to go to repeal Apostolicae Curae and re-defining certain doctrines or perhaps even attitudes towards them on an official level to be taken wholly seriously.
Which is perhaps very sharply phrased, but such tactics by Rome have been deployed to the Orthodox many times before - it was called Uniatism and is no longer an official strategy used by Rome toward the Orthodox. Yet it seems to be in use toward the Anglicans in their moment of need and weakness.
The Orthodox, in spite of previous recognitions, are no better. They too invariably re-Ordain Anglican clergy (I admit much to my shame). Orthodoxy is therefore also not a real option ...
Just my opinion of course ...
Fr.Gregory+
Father,
How long do we try to hold out as Anglican’s? What type of communion are we in when it is constantly getting smaller and smaller? Those are the questions that have been on my mind for sometime now. So I understand why many Anglicans see the Anglican Use in the Roman Church as the answer to that question. The Anglican Communion is failing and the ACNA is not much better, and the “Continuing Anglicans” are losing ground and still have many divisions between themselves; so if you are serious about faith in communion I can understand why you would be drawn to the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite at this time. I do how ever question those that say we should hold out and wait for the Orthodox to come to our rescue; because I do not see that being in our future at least not in my life time and I still have many years to go. From what I have seen in the Orthodox Church with the regard to the Western Rite, the main body of Orthodoxy does not have a great tolerance for them. And as many of the Anglican clergy that I have talked to their interest in Orthodoxy is only/mainly in the Western Rite of Orthodoxy.
I have a love for Orthodoxy because I have family that are Orthodox but I do not feel that at this time the Orthodox Church, there leadership there Metropolitans’ are than open to Anglicans coming into there Orders in mass unless it where to be in the Eastern Rite. To some extent I understand because they want to maintain the traditions of the Eastern Rite, but then why have a Western Rite?
I am not saying the Rome in the Answer to the question, but it seems to me that at this point in time Rome is open and open with friendly arms. Yes Anglican Clergy would have to be re-ordained as they would in the Orthodox Church, as many Anglican Churches would require a “pastor” from a protestant denomination to be (understanding that it is not the exact same thing but very similar).
There needs to be much prayer and fasting before any decision is made in this aspect one way or the other.
A few questions. How many married Anglican Bishops are going to be willing to take a reduction in "rank" and become priests in the new Orinariate? How many Anglicans will be willing to accept the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope? As Anglicans, we may view as pious custom that the Blessed Mother was born without sin and in the belief that she was assumed into heaven, but are we willing to accept it as doctrine necessary for salvation? Just asking.
Dear Joe,
"... it seems to me that at this point in time Rome is open and open with friendly arms."
Perhaps from Rome's pov it is very friendly and generous indeed. After all it offers to select elements of a tradition that will be permitted to be maintained upon conversion and upon entering the Church - make no mistake the Anglicans do not constitute a Church in Rome's view - and after having rejected their ow initation into several Sacraments (chrismation and ordination among them) they will now at last be given them. The words of Saepius are as true today as they were yesterday to the effect that Rome still aims "at overthrowing our (the Anglican) position as a Church (Saepius, 1)." The friendliness is entirely in the eye of the beholder ....
"Yes Anglican Clergy would have to be re-ordained as they would in the Orthodox Church"
And since Anglican Orders are unquestionably valid this involves Rome and/or the Orthodox in an act of sacrilege - ordination (like Baptism and chrismation) cannot be repeated. To repeat them none-the-less is an act of astounding sacramental and ecclesial violence. Anyone involved - including the one receiving the sacrament for a second time - are part of an act of sacrilege making mock of the non-repeatability of certain sacraments. This is a serious issue that is conveniently overlooked by Rome as well as by most of us Orthodox.
"... as many Anglican Churches would require a “pastor” from a protestant denomination to be (understanding that it is not the exact same thing but very similar)."
Without an Episcopate (which most Protestants lack) there is no Sacrament of Order. Anglicans do not repeat a Sacrament but bestow it where it did not exist - and in cases of doubt a conditional ordination may be called for. Unlike most of the Protestant world, the Anglicans are a constitutive part of the Body of Christ sharing the life-blood of sacramentality with the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox.
At least ... such are the conclusions I have come to. My own Church (OCA) has not and would indeed re-ordain any Anglican clergy and perhaps even re-baptize some.
Fr. Gregory+
Father Gregory,
Thank you. I am a frustrated Anglican, to say the least. I was raised American Baptist, possibly the most liberal of Baptist then started attending Roman Catholic Churches although never converted, wish washed around everything from Southern Baptist to non-denominational to Church of Christ and found myself with my family drown to the Anglican faith, and we have been here for two years. During this time I have felt myself pulled (called) to a even more catholic, orthodox faith; something deeper that what is given to us through our Anglican worship and history. In my younger years like many I made mistakes and live with them, one of which was a marriage that went bad all to quickly and lead to a divorce. So I am a divorced and remarried now with four children two of which are from my first marriage that I have custody of, and two from my wife that I deeply love and has been the major influence in brining me back to the faith.
So I look at the Anglican Church, that I love, as broken and failing and I look at my children wanting to raise them in a Church that will be lasting and stand the test of time, and I do not see that in the Anglican Church. I want to find piece and be able to worship God in a place that does not have to worry about its own existence.
I did not convert to Roman Catholic because of my divorce, and that is one of the main reasons that I am Anglican.
I am lost in this; and really don’t know what direction I will end up going. I have spent many hours, days in prayer asking God where I am to worship him where my faith is to grow where am I to lead my family.
I would appreciate correspondence with you my email is dad2zebe@gmail.com
That you and Father Chandler for your time.
I believe that there is a major difference between re-ordination and conditional ordination. If one accepts re-ordination, one is renouncing the previous ordination as not being valid and becoming a "new" priest from the date of re-ordination. One is stating that all acts as a priest prior to the re-ordination were not valid. Accepting conditional ordination would only be taking on the apostolic lines of the Church when joining and there is no hint of renouncing the first and valid (though possibly irregular) ordination.
Father Gregory
As an Orthodox Christian, and formerly a Roman Catholic seminarian, I agree with nearly all of your thoughts. I too have questioned the position of our church in re-ordaining Anglicans. One of the things that attracted me to Orthodoxy was (in most Churches) a distinct lack of Roman "legalistic" thinking, sich as validity and liceity. It has seemed to me that Anglicans have always possessed Apostolic lineage that intended in its ordinations to do what the church had always done by conferring Orders.
Given all of that, however, I fully believe that Anglicans are missing the boat, so to speak, by not seriously investigating Orthodoxy as the prime option. As you know, there are many entire Anglican churches that have come to Orthodoxy as a group. With only slight modifications to th Book of Common Prayer, as they have for example at St. Mark's in Denver, they have been brought into the Antiochean Rite but retain a clear Anglican identity. Also, they don't have to worry about indulgences, purgatory, papal claims or excessive Marian understandings. As for the Immaculate Conception, it is for us Orthodox an unnecessary debate, since we don't accept the guilt of the sin of Adam having been transmitted, but only the consequences.
All in all, Orthodoxy appears a much better option for those Anglicans concerned about the state of their communion.
Thank you for your excellent posts, Father. I appreciate them.
This is perhaps a minor quibble but being the teacher that I am I can be concerned with small inaccuracies. I beg your indulgence.
The CDF did not in October set up any Anglican Ordinariates. Rather what Benedict created was the provision within canon law for ordinariates to be established by the Vatican. Each ordinariate will be particular to each country, i.e. there will be an American Ordinariate, an Australian, a Canadian, etc. There have been no ordinariates established yet. I suspect that we'll see one set up and an ordinary appointed in the next several months.
What does that mean for us here in the Philippines? Will there be an ordinariate that we could join? That is still to be seen. If there was a group here, a budding parish say, then maybe it could have a missionary relationship with the American ordinariate.
One interesting aspect of the rules of the ordinariate is that the Roman Catholic Church would allow Anglican bishops to keep the signs of their office and their status with the Roman Catholic Church even if they are married and could not be bishops.
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